UPDATE
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April 1, 2021

Brent Butchard, Regional Sales Director at Micro Focus

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Good morning and good afternoon everyone, welcome to the latest edition of walters world the podcast series from a stadia.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: For those who view who may not have joined us before a stadia is a systems integrator who works in the space for mainframe migration and modernization.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: And in this podcast series, we were fortunate to bring in some of the industry leaders in this space to talk about mainframe migration and modernization.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: And today i'm really happy to introduce and have with me Brent bouchard who's the AMC regional sales director for Australia and New Zealand hi good morning to you.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Good morning, Walter good morning everyone.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: i'm really excited to have you here, thank you for taking the time and an early start to your day.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: My pleasure.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Okay, a brick, could you describe, for the audience what it is that you do for micro focus.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Certainly i'm the regional sales director for the mainframe modernization and migration practice for Australia and New Zealand within micro focus, which we refer to as application modernization and connectivity or AMC.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Okay perfect Thank you oh wait, I know that you have worked with both public and private sector.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: And i'm curious you know, and I know there are differences, but how would you describe the level of interest in today's world, especially with everything going on with coven.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: level of interest in the enterprise and the government markets and moving mainframe workloads to the cloud, especially.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: yeah absolutely if you asked me 1224 months ago with the covert pandemic, what would you think I would have thought that the migration would have slowed down, however it's actually.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: it's gone gangbusters it's it's at its peak right now and that's because companies are needing to support their staff and new modes of work.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And there's a unprecedented focus on lowering operating costs for the organization, so they are sustainable in the future, and also ensuring that they are able to reach and support their customers in new mode so it's unprecedented interest and activity in the market today.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: yeah we at a stadium have seen the same way right really shocked, like you, we didn't know what coven was going to do to this industry and for us, you know, the first 3045 days it certainly had an impact people were trying to figure out what they could or should do.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: And there's just been a paradigm shift in the way that people work.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Everybody working from home, as you know, we all just sit in zoom meetings all day long.

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Every day.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: But after that people have really started to express interest and I don't know if that part of it is that.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: You know a lot of people don't want to go back to the data Center anymore and they're retiring they're looking at other options, so people are having to look at things differently than they ever did before I feel.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: I agree with you, they Walter its challenges to look at new ways that we operate.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Absolutely absolutely.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Now we talked about public and private sector just in terms of i'm always intrigued with this, because I started my industry in the government sector.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: From your perspective.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: The government agencies that you work with there and Australia and New Zealand do they are there any special challenges that they face as.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: You know they go through looking at alternatives for what they're doing on the mainframe today that the other organizations, the public ones don't have to worry about.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: it's it's it's it's an interesting one, Walter at the face of it would look at this and say that.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Government has the same challenges as corporate we have data privacy and privacy of the citizen, we need to make sure it's in secure they have.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: changes in the market, but I think it's right now exacerbated for the government, and I do feel for them, because if we look at government they've been the longer and longest investors in technology so they've got the widest mix of technology.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Great but within, especially in Australia we've had.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: issues around bushfire and bushfire relief, which has flowed straight on to covert 19 which has gone into stimulus payments is also you would have over in the United States.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Right, so we call it job up here and as we're moving into the vaccination, we have the covert 19 vaccination certification scheme.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: What this all adds up to his government agencies are being asked to work in the most agile manner that they haven't been seen since inception so you're encumbered with the longest technology debt, with the widest mix of technologies and due to.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Absolute issues now to support the citizen they're being asked to be as agile as a start up organization so yeah they've got a pretty difficult task ahead of in there.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: it's not an easy thing is it when we think about our mainframe backgrounds and the way that we responded to change compared to what people have to do today, it is 180 degrees.

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office.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: No longer do you get to use to roll out a new applications.

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Absolutely.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: How would you describe the sentiment overall and the market where you are towards mainframe migration has it has it changed is it you see differences from what has been there in the past.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: yeah there's definitely an appetite for change now and some of that could be through embracing change and others walking away from pain and.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: To describe that for you, there are definitely companies that are want to change the way they work but there's also some really sticks in the world, as I said before, just becoming more profitable organizations.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: The difference to four to five years ago, or Walter is or or maybe 10 years ago we've had multiple organizations now whether it's kmart Queensland rial tower insurance and some others which I won't name.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: they've it's proven the skills are in the market they've done the migration of so now that the the art of the possible has been proven customers and saying how can I leverage this, how can I take this on.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Four or five years ago, there was certainly a lot of interest in it that they didn't want to be the first one to move off.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: If I could encapsulate the sentiment now, as I would say is no one wants to be last person standing and I say that because.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Who wants to be the last person running a technology trying to find and keep.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Resources in the market, and I think all of us have seen that, as the as the number of mainframe shrinking the market, so does a resource pool.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Because we've got an aging workforce that may be retiring and good luck to them, I can't wait to do it myself, but at the same time, you know it's people as as their organization retires mainframe they may re skill on moving to different technologies.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: yeah absolutely I don't know what you feel the same to one of the things that we have seen here in the US is you know new industries, no one really if they're starting a new business very few people would say i'm going to go out and buy myself a mainframe.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Now they're finding.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: You in different ways to do things so like with a fintech people who are starting companies changing the way that industries work and organizations, the old brick and mortar shops that have had the same mainframe environment for 30 or 40 or.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: 50 years it's harder for them to compete I think don't you.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: yeah absolutely and need to define it because i've got a lot of personal affection for the main fine.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: But it was it was the optimal platform for a time, but times change markets change.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And the imprisonment agility that's required now the connectivity that's required and then compatibility with working with other companies and other systems.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: requires a platform that unfortunately, the mainframe was not designed for what made it robust is now holding it back today and what made it fit for purpose yesterday.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: does not make it fit for purpose today, and certainly that's where we're getting that drive for people of moving to cloud and using those new native technologies yeah.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Great great point, and if you don't mind i'm gonna steal that sometime I love the way you phrase that what was perfect before doesn't mean that's perfect today that's great.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: yeah the world does change yes.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Indeed, indeed so as organizations look at those kinds of changes and I need to be more responsive Are there things that still hold them back from making the.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: year we do see that enough.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: yeah well we do see that a fair bit and it's it's it's to do with.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: As I class emotional inertia.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: I find a lot of the time it's difficult for us in anything, whether it's personal life or technology or business to actually say, while that was the right investment to make it a period of time, we need to change.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And what happens is the leadership of an organization will reach down to their company, and so we want you to do a review.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: We want to see if this is the right platform, but the people they're asking to do that, where the people who made the decision to acquire the mainframe or have been supporting it for decades.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And that that creates it and analysis paralysis and they don't realize the opportunity cost.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: So they'll look at the platform and i'll say it's running well done change it, but the opportunity cost the cost of not doing something else, being more agile.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Being quicker to the market, those areas air and they should be analyzing that so what I always recommend is they should get an external party.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: To give guidance as well, certainly leverage the knowledge and the winners of the business internally.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: But don't be afraid to look out and get advice and guidance from those outside and in what I would say is reach out to the customers that have done it before.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: You know, great reach out to the to the came out to the world and and those organizations and talk to them about the journey because that's the way you're going to truly understand the value that they unlock.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: That certainly makes sense to me, I know that I think it's important and I often recommend to people that.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: My first mainframe migration is a lot different from a mainframe migration today i've got the bumps and bruises we all do, that we've been through, and we know it's painful.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: And for someone who's been working on a mainframe their entire career, I feel, sometimes they don't know what to look for to be.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: With.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Or to plan for so working with people who have gone through that I think you, you make a great point that it is not just comforting but it's educational.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: For us, and what to look for.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Absolutely, and certainly in Australia, the technology sector is not a large sector compared to say, the United States or Europe and there is certainly a certain amount of.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Help that you would find from organizations, so there are many communities within the strain technology market that if companies reach out to we can connect them to.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And those who have done it those who have the skill, they certainly are into the the trading of information on ideas, so I would say the you're not alone in it, and if you do reach out there are certainly other companies that would be certainly willing to share their experience.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: That makes sense well let's talk for a second about micro focus.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: For those organizations who are looking to you know find their proper journey and we recognize that no two journeys are the same.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: How is my focus best geared to help those organizations.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Absolutely well first i'll start with the experience, this is something we've been doing for 40 years, well before I joined the organization.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And we've done to memory in the last in the last 10 years we've done well over 600 migrations just in the last 10 years alone.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: So we've got this skill base that the technology and that technology has matured and improved over time judah the number of migrations that we've got so I believe that puts us in a unique position.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And then also our partner network so organizations such as yourselves over in Australia, which would get along and trusted relationship with Accenture emphasis tcs wipro.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: aws azure so you need a strong basis of a partner network, because all of them being different qualities to the table and we couldn't do it without them, but at the same time, our our.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Technology and our skill and experience that is what's going to make a difference, but it's also our approach, a lot of people you'd hear in the industry talk about a lift and shift.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: What we're talking about is do not give up on your application keep that application there's there's money in that application, it was what made it successful so we're talking about modernize the platform.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: We work with our customers to then after that modernizing the platform and remove those inhibitors to.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: modernize their processes and modes of work that's adopting agile and devops style processes on these legacy platforms and then overall once we've done that.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: That allows a true modernization of the application and that's talking about the unlocking of data and and modernizing those business processes.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: That absolutely makes sense to me when I talk all the time about the fact that I think that the business rules that are in companies code that really helps define who they are it's a differentiator between them and all of their competitors.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: So they'll never.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Giving up on that is like.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: What I like to say to customers sorry Walter is.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: that you are here and your competitors are nice proves your business process that is what made you successful, why would you want to give that up.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Why would you want to go back to a generic industry standard off the shelf program and then have to modify because that you're here and your competitors or not that's why you are successful those business processes and how you approach the market.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: you've earned the right to be different that way.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Yes, you make your self of different from your competitors and better able to respond to your customers needs so you and I are in in sync on this.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Absolutely, we want to outperform the market not perform at the market right.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: I like the way you say it up front i'm curious from your perspective, and I know you get to talk to lots and lots of organizations yeah do you feel that those organizations.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: still consider modernizing old systems when they could just replace them and then we just kind of talked about part of that, but do you find that.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: People want to just follow trends, sometimes, and so they don't want to modernize their old systems, they want to instead say I need to work with different languages, I need to.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: pull up business rules, what are the the types of conversations that you have with organizations about what's important to them in that regard.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: yeah I think a lot of the time people look at the end state they want to be at and they forget the journey, and it is a journey.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And that's where we see a lot of challenges, so the insight could be actually a new application or could be, in a new language but they.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: They say Okay, this is where we want to be, and they step over many important steps in that journey.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And if you look at the modernization overall on the conversations I have is that the migration to cloud in the model of modernization with micro focus and our partner network, you can actually accelerate that.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Yes, that you may choose to rewrite in the future does not negate the migration first and some great examples we have is.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: we've the caveman example, they are refactoring and rewriting their product, overall, but they might read it to micro focus first and they moved in nine months, why is that important.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Well, that allowed them to invest the savings that they had from a migration into the modernization, so now we start talking about to customers let's look.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: At the end state, you want to be at in five 710 years time but let's get incremental change and benefits up front, how do we front load the value to you.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And then, once we've got those cost savings to La to reinvest so you can have a as close to or even cost neutral modernization practice.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: The alternative is investing 10s or hundreds of millions of dollars in the new technology running it side by side with no benefit until the end state and then hoping when you click this.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: flick the switch is connected via.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Efforts that you're after i'm thinking that the the the appetite for that is less and less because we've seen unfortunately some.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Seismic unsuccessful projects and customers are more cautious, which I appreciate that approach.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And we are heavily invested in the banking the insurance and federal government sectors in Australia and that approach is.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: How do we improve staff productivity let's look at the developers and testers can we get you to quicker time to market before we migrate.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: let's see how we can improve that then let's migrate and take out your operating costs once we've got that let's feed those cost savings back into the new technologies.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Then let's look at the the application itself are there, parts of the application that maybe could be broken off and rewritten and take the new technologies.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: But the core which may be static or or limited in its changes let's keep that the way it is why disrupt what's working well why Ray would write something that doesn't need to be rewritten.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: print that exactly matches what we've seen here at a stadium, and I can't tell you the number of times, where i've talked to customers who say i'm you know I recognize I can't get to that end state on day one.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: And that it makes economic and technical and business sense to do it in phases, so that you get to take advantage of that economic benefit to reinvest and modernizing.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: What i've seen, though, is people say i'm going to get there and then i'm just going to rewrite everything or i'm going to refactor everything to a different language.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: What they have found is as they go through, especially for many of these old mainframe systems, you know they have a re compiled some of their code in the last 15 years.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: the beauty of the mainframe is it does the same thing, every day, the same way.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: And what they've done is said, we can handpick, just as you describe those areas where it makes the most sense to get the benefit first.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: And with the development, environment that micro focus provides being able to have a cobalt program talking to a C sharp program as an example it's not that big of a deal that's the easy part of.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: And you can just pick and choose what you want, in.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Absolutely we're doing that, with a very large federal government agency right now in Australia and we've nicknamed it modernization by stealth.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: So what happens is and it's it's got a lot of support which is as a modification of a business processes required they'll rewrite it in C sharp.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And they're only modernizing the routines that the business has requested changes to.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And we have cable talking to sit shisha natively it's working in the cloud and it's it's a in the environment it's still talking back to a mainframe as well, so there's still some legacy mind from X.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: But it's allowed them for this application to scale to an unprecedented level that they've got to do around a certain time of you.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: make sense to me.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: One of the questions I want to ask you is what are some of the biggest concerns that you hear from your customers, I mean.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: It may just be these but normally we hear like costs and resources and agility are there, others beyond that that you hear or, can you tell me what you most often hear about why people say I need to go ahead and make a decision to do something different.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Absolutely, so it depends on the individual that you're talking to in the organization, obviously, if we're talking to the.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: The business leaders in the business owners, it is about operating costs and efficiencies because.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: In these sort of times you need to be running at the lowest cost base at the highest performance to out compete your your competitors, but agility.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And agility is a really important one, and I have this discussion, a lot of the time where i'm talking to the the users of the application that people run the business, and it is a compliment.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: That you have competitors, that you have created a high margin, a high profitable market share in a market, whether it's credit cards homeless or whatever, that is, that is kudos to you because you've run a fantastic business the unfortunate side.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Is that created incumbency for you technology debt and legacy and you've got people who don't have those challenges.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And they can walk into the market learning all the lessons learned that you've had the hard way.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: and try to disrupt your organization so they're very much concerned about being agile and certainly I wouldn't say that this is something that will affect them tomorrow.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: But those competitors will grow over time and it may come to a level that they are actually a threat to those organization so edges one of it, but one that i'd say is top of mind right now is resource risk.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: resource risk we're having we're coming up, I think, in Australia, the average mainframe programmers approximately 57 or 58 and we come to that time where.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: People have worked hard for their lives and they want to enjoy it with their kids or their grandkids and.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: This is a reason why we want work hard it's not just a factor of throwing money at people these people want to enjoy.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: You know why joy outside of the work life, so when we need to lower the skill bar required and.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: that's a lot of the time we can we can lower that skill bar kobo is a very readily available skill, but it's assist Prague skills it's a mainframe zero skills that answer readily available so.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: If we can lower the skill bar remove those skills requirements, and we can address that resource risk if we can improve the productivity of the staff.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Overall, then we can manage the attrition of some of those key people in that environment, and if we can also leverage from technologies like our analysis tools that allows you to visualize.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: and understand the programs, then you don't have to be a 10 or 20 years store was on that application to understand what it does well.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: i'm glad you mentioned the analysis tool i'm a huge fan of it.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: And I think that it.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Absolutely affords people.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: And organizations, the opportunity to not be terrified that their resources are retiring.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: I mentioned coven we saw a lot of people who are getting close to retirement age who just don't want to go back to the data Center they don't feel safe.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: And i've always contended, as you mentioned it's not cobalt programmers who are the real challenge it's the system programmers though you guys who serve 10 your mentor ships, who you can't just.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: pull out of school or teaching 30 days what they need to do.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: But with the analysis tool being able to go through and understand the relationships, even if someone is picking up cobalt it tells them everything that they need to be concerned about without having to have a 20 year history of working on that application.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Absolutely, and I, and I have a small analogy or story for their Walter were at a at a large and a white mentioned them obviously a large customer of ours, we will that my team was running the enterprise analyzer tool.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And i've always been big on transparency and business and the customer had a why diagram around the business flow.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And my team did the analysis of the code workflow and when you put the two together.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And some cases they didn't actually aligned, so there are some benefits here of actually getting that visual representation, so you can validate what that amazingly complex business process is doing the code is reflected in how the business operates.

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Absolutely.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: um are you seeing a difference in the size of the organization to now consider moving off the mainframe.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Absolutely, if you when I first took this division over for Australia, New Zealand, it was these smaller organizations that were looking to do it, or the ones that are under margin pressure.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And the reason why they're doing is they're trying to become more lean organizations and that made a lot of sense.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: But the biggest insurance companies we're working with now in the country, and some of the biggest banks and some of the biggest federal government agencies and that comes from that retiring resources that comes from.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Some skills, with the resource risk that comes from the need, even a government agency has to be agile, I mean, who would have thought that we're going to have a pandemic, it was something we saw in the movies.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And the government has to respond rapidly to support the citizen and we even saw that in America with the unemployment benefits systems which.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: needed to modernize rapidly to support the the load of stimulus payments that we're going through, so these large organizations are doing it, they.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Obviously, want to bank, the benefit of being more operationally efficient, but their primary driver is more around that agile side and we're seeing the largest organizations approaching us down workings.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: yeah we have seen the same it's amazing when I started doing mainframe migrations back in 1994.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: You know, it was the it was the smallest of the small people who are looking to save money.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: In the last two years, just as you have we've talked to organizations that I honestly never would have been trained considering moving from the mainframe and then for all the reasons that you mentioned and i'll add one more the acceptance of the cloud and whatever form.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: It takes.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: People I think really see potential and huge benefit there and they want to be able to leverage it and they find it easier to do when they consider the the options that we have talked about.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: that's a great point that you make well to win a cloud first came out, I think that will talk about the concept of a former employee, maybe 10 years ago.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Around the cloud and we just sort of the hosting platform there.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Where it has matured into something amazing the native services or the natural services, I have there, so you can move applications in you can leverage the data, you can interconnect well.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: You can run the Ai you don't have to develop it all from scratch, so they have this enormous catalog of pre built services, which is, which is truly ecliptic and whether it's your Google aws agile.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: For depending on the needs of the organization, all of them have have this this repertoire of services that customers can hook into, and I think that's that's driving a lot of those big ones that capability that's already pre built.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Absolutely it's a paradigm shift being able to take advantage of something without having to write it from scratch it's just there and just works.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Yes, Okay, a Brit I know we're getting close to the end of our time.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Any final advice that you might have for organizations that you know there's still planning the future of their core legacy business systems words of wisdom for them.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: The main word of wisdom I would give them is reach out reach out and don't limit yourself, now that doesn't have to be to an organization such as micro focus, or even a study.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: But there's a lot of there's a lot of companies that have gone through this if you reach out ask for help, ask for advice.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: I don't know anyone who's been in the in the industry, he wouldn't give a moment of their time to help out somebody else, these are difficult decisions to go through.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: But where i've seen the most successful people is they get the broadest amount of ideas from the most organizations, obviously.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: I haven't invested in a vested interest i'd like to work with these organizations, but if you limit yourself just to your internal resources you're going to repeat what you've done before and that's the emotional nurture that we're talking about so reach out and also.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: It doesn't need to be that hard.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Sometimes we make things harder than what they need to be, and yet we're talking to an organization That said, we want to move at for applications at once.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: And the question was why like helping move one, so you can do it in a in a in a staged approach reach out there's a lot of help in the market and just don't be last person standing.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: Agreed agreed but i'm really want to thank you for taking the time again so early in your morning, as always, it was a pleasure talking with you.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: And I hope this was a really helpful session for the people who attended and for our audience, thank you for taking the time out of your busy day.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: If you want to hear more of our podcasts please check our schedule@www.sedar.com and we look forward to seeing you all on the next podcast Thank you all so much.

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Brent Butchard - AMC Regional Sales Director, Australia and NZ: Thank you branch walton.

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Walter.Sweat - CTO, Astadia: bye now.